213 replies to this topic

[koho-2]

QUOTE (History man @ May 28 2009, 11:35 PM)

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Greetings.

This is my first post. Glad to be here amongst some of the best hockey fans in the world. I've been enjoying and studying NHL hockey history for quite a few years. Happy to participate here.

8) Borje Salming. Refused to give into unprecedented levels of intimidation as he went on to become the greatest overall Leaf defenseman of all-time.


Notable Ommissions
Mats Sundin- All-time franchise point leader, but never won anything.
Tim Horton - Temendous defensive defenseman. Won four Cups but had to play several years before he became one of the best.
George Armstrong - Franchise leader in games played. Very important leader and four-time Cup winner, but his points per game ratio is relatively low.

Although some have said it before and as much as I admire Borje Salmings career, it was for lack of a better word, "fantastic" he is arguably the second best Dman to ever don a Leaf uni. The seat he takes in second place is directly behind the seat that Myles occupies. Horton during his career was easily more dominant more often than Borje ever was, without him I really don't think that all 4 of those SC's in the 60's would've happened. He was integral to the Leafs successes, one could argue that Salming was integral to any Leaf successes of the 70's but it never was enough to bring home the big prize.

Salming IMO does belong in the top 15 as the Leafs have never had a more gifted offensive defenceman who had great defensive instincts as well. Horton was the anti-thesis of Salming, superb defense and very good offense. It may be premature of my saying so but if Luke develops those offensive instincts and continues his upward growth defensively he may mean as much to the team as Horton once did, there is already an eerie resemblance!

[koho-2]

Excuse me while I chime in

Tim Horton whom many of you never got the chance to see play, was "miles" ahead of Borje when it concerned the defensive side of the game. He was a positional defensman as well as being one of the NHL's true strongmen. Many overlook Hortons offensive numbers when stacked side-by side with Borjes but a closer look reveals a whole different story.

Doug Harvey who is acknowledged as a great offensive Dman and one of the best of all-time, played 1113 Reg season games collecting 88G 452A and 540Pts and grabbing another 137 playoff games scoring 8G 64A for 72 points.....all the while playing with the "Flying Frenchmen" an offensive juggernaut

Horton meanwhile racked up 1185 gps as a Leaf scoring 109G 345A for 458 pts, adding another 41 pts in 97 P/O games

As I said by all accounts Harvey was the creme de la creme when it came to offensive Dmen his .485PPG totals were only a mere 1/10th of a point per game above Hortons. The conclusion here is that Tim for his era was pretty handy offensively.

When comparing the "King's" numbers of .698ppg as a Leaf those aforementioned numbers pale in comparison just as Salmings do against that other Dman who played in Beantown and who could be considered contemporary to Borje. As a Bruin Bobby put up a stunning 1.407ppg average a full 7/10ths of a point above Salmings. Salming played on a Leafs team that was pretty good offensively whereas Horton's Leafs relied on stifling defense in order to win games

Horton participated in 6 SC finals, the Leafs winning 4 of them, unfortunately Salmings Leafs couldn't quite go the extra mile.

Horton isn't as challenged offensively as many think and he was also the lynchpin on a Dcorps that was for a time the best in the league.

Horton IMO is the greatest Dman ever to suit up for the Leafs and ranks up there with the the best whoever played the game at that position, easily top 15 overall, Salming was excellent and certainly may be worthy of a top 15 when it comes to the Leafs but as far as all-time league goes Borje may not even be top 30

[koho-2]

QUOTE (TuckerIntensity @ Jun 5 2009, 10:36 AM)

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It boggles my mind that Horton isn't in these ten names. As I said, he was better than Salming overall and as koho and others have alluded to, his offensive game wasn't too shabby (the same can be said for Salming's defensive game though.)

Sometimes it's all about era, sometimes not having seen a player play and so his accomplishments don't get the research that would validate his relative importance to the team.............in my book Horton would be ranked 5/6 on an all time Leafs list, he was just that good and so very important to the Leafs successes.

I agree that Borje was very good defensively as well, man that guy could skate and he was no shrinking violet when it came to the physical part of the game either, no "Sweet Swede" was our Borje. Horton however and don't let the lack of Norrises fool you was at the top of the game as far as playing the position.

Just a side note on trophies. From back in the day when Connie ran the whole show, the Leafs MO was one of team-work. Individual stars and we had many but never promoted were if not frowned upon by the Major held in a certain contempt. Conn didn't believe in individual awards and drilled it into anyone who wore the B&W that it was "team above all else" or you get a quick trip to the minors and you'll stay there. This was said to be a reflection of Smythes strict protestant(presbyterian) upbringing and the importance he placed on the ethic of hard work and humility. Heck Smythe changed the team colours from kelly green because he saw it as a reflection the Irish Catholic community and that to him was a suggestion of the heavily catholocised Montreal Canadiens!

Even Imlachs teams carried Conn's stamp, when Mahovlich started being promoted heavily by the Toronto papers, Imlach would rail at him the "if he wanted to be a star, he'd better start playing like it" and then would bench him at important times in the game and thusly diminishing the shine a little at a time.................. tough to be a Leaf

[koho-2]

QUOTE (Armster @ Jun 5 2009, 11:08 AM)

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From all accounts and everything I have seen, and this may come across as odd to you, but Ian White reminds of Tim Horton - from an offensive standpoint only obviously. He moves the puck like him, looks just like him when carrying the puck up the ice, shoots like him, etc. And no, it's not because they both wear #7.

......actually if you could graft Whitey's offense onto Schenns physicalty and strength........then you've got something that more closely resembles Timmy

Tim was a bull who could do it all

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 3 2009, 11:57 PM)

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I can see Teeder is underrated. I need to step up the campaign, lol.

Did you guys know that Kennedy is the ONLY player in NHL history to win 3 Conn Smythe trophies in 4 years? True, they were retroactively awarded but they are still recognized by the Hall of Fame. In comparison, Patrick Roy also won 3 but he did it over 15 years. A few players have 2 and that's it. Absolutely amazing when you think about it. This guy was a playoff warrior (think of a bigger, better Doug Gilmour) and the best captain in Leafs history, maybe NHL history!

Ted Kennedy vs. Dave Keon.... go. This is more directed at everyone than just you, but in my research, I think Kennedy is being underrated as well. Am I suggesting he's a better Leaf than Keon? Maybe ( Edit: I take it back, I might just be suggesting that.) Just in the two partial lists we've seen he's not in the Top 5 (and we don't know, he could be #6, it's only a Top 5) on one and six spots behind Keon (at #1) on the other (in the team he's behind Kennedy, but that could be for role purposes) and I personally just don't see how he's that far down yet. And spinner hasn't even had to campaign that hard yet! I'm not saying either list is wrong either, that's why there are a lot of us, to get the differences of opinion. I just thought this was some good discussion because in my early findings, I'm liking him a lot as one of the Top 5, maybe I'm out to lunch.

I'm not completely set in stone yet either, but I am liking Armster's pick of Conacher at #1. I don't think I've fully understood how good this guy was. I'm trying to go by 10s (probably 20s as I get deeper) and then sort those guys out in that group of 10, so I've not exactly got a set Top 10 or 20 yet.

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (seventieslord @ Feb 5 2009, 02:25 PM)

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I think Apps is clearly better than both those guys, but very little separates Keon and Kennedy. I can't even say for sure who I'd have ahead of whom.

I'd agree with Apps, the very little separating Keon and Kennedy is one of the reasons I brought them up specifically. Just looking at the stats, it seems Kennedy has the edge, but I haven't tallied Hart voting yet (is that available from those eras?)

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 5 2009, 05:49 PM)

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You're not out to lunch (at least not about this ) because omitting Keon or Kennedy from anyone's top 5 is a crime, IMO.

As far as skill goes, Keon wins easily. I think that gives him a slight edge over Kennedy. They are 1-2 in my books. Conacher is up there too but usually a center is more crucial to a team than a winger, that's just the way it goes.

I agree, but at the same time I don't want to devalue a player just because he played wing either. I mean, like seventies said, some of these goal scoring titles weren't close, even the year he tied he was 8% ahead in GPG and in two seasons he was 48% and 35% above the next closest guy. To top that off, he led the league in points twice (something Keon and Kennedy didn't do) and has five top fives (plus two second bests in PPG, one of them to Howie Morenz.) Maybe Apps, well more like probably, Apps is better, but Conacher was right there with him I think. So I guess we've narrowed down my Top Four forwards! Bringing defensemen (and goalies) is just going to complicate things! Salming is probably right in the Keon/Kennedy range, and Horton possibly a bit higher. I've really focused on studying some big name forwards first and then will do the same for goalies and defenseman and try to merge the group of 10-12 into a Top 10 (and so on down the line.)

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 5 2009, 08:56 PM)

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I don't think any of those guys, except for Clancy, have the hardware (retroactively and real time) that Keon and Kennedy have so I wouldn't put them into the Top 4.

You know, I thought I had my Top Four pretty much set, but when I look at the Hart and Norris voting and see the all-star team appearances (granted being a second team defensive all-star is easier than being a second team centre, same with first, I've taken that into account) I'm really starting to drop a couple of guys a spot or two each that I didn't think they would. I know Salming didn't have post-season success in terms of awards or Cups, but (if I counted correctly) he had 8 Top 10 in Norris, a couple of Top 10 in assists, and five second team all-stars with one first. That's a pretty incredible Leaf. His playoff production was also solid, I can't completely fault him for being on teams not good enough to make it.

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 5 2009, 08:56 PM)

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I agree on the latter but "hijacking"??? Why are you looking at it in such a negative light? It was an honour, not a disgrace. They acknowledged the man's career and felt that he deserved a Hart trophy. That means his entire career was something spectacular, not just one lousy season. When the Grammys hand out Lifetime Achievement awards to guys like Bing Crosby or Frank Sinatra, is it shameful?

Except the Lifetime Achievement Award is handed out for just that, where the Hart is handed out as the MVP (to his team, yada, yada, yada) for the year and if he didn't deserve it, why should he get it? Should Gretz have won it in '99? No, not even for lifetime achievement. All that said, I still rate Teeder very highly.

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 6 2009, 09:09 AM)

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Now you've done it. You've gone and mentioned Hef's favourite player - no telling what he's gonna do!

Remember when we waived Steve Sullivan for him? Why didn't I figure it out then... oh to be young and naive again.

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 6 2009, 09:09 AM)

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I loved Salming growing up. He was my favourite Leaf, to be sure. I haven't decided where he fits in though.

I think a lot of people really liked Salming. He was one of my first favourite Leafs (Courtnall was the very first one, and Salming and Eddie O were right with him), right now (and I forget for sure, my list isn't in front of me) I have him at #6 I think. He's hovering right around Keon and Kennedy and Horton, for now, is just out front of them.

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 6 2009, 09:09 AM)

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Regardless if it was a Hart or Selke or Norris or Khristich award, it doesn't matter. The fact is, the man was given a Career Achievement award and how many players was that done for? We should be proud that it went to a Leaf, not ashamed.

I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of it at all, it's just he took it away from a deserving player for that year, you know? Is it an honour to him? Of course, but he didn't win it for what he did in one season, which is what the Hart is about.

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 6 2009, 02:23 PM)

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Courtnall, eh? So what was your reaction to Gordie Stellick's infamous trade?

I try to block it from my memory! I remember my mom telling me, I didn't understand it at all. I was too young, I didn't get that players could get traded and play for another team. I didn't realize just how terrible the trade was until years later, I just thought it was really, really dumb because he was my favourite player, little did I know!

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 6 2009, 02:23 PM)

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Sure, but this brings me back to my original point: what is more important? To be honoured for one season, or to be honoured for a whole career?

Let's say Tim Horton was awarded a Hart at the end of his career, or Salming a Norris, or Horton a Norris for that matter based on how good they were and in Horton's case, who he faced in voting. Would it make them better overall? Personally, I don't think so. But say Horton legitimately won a Norris over Bobby Orr? That makes him that much better (kind of like Pilote.) It's certainly not a discredit to Teeder's career to have won the Hart when he didn't deserve it for the season, and it's certainly an honour to win a "lifetime achievement" award for an outstanding career, but I don't think it makes him better in terms of overall career, if that makes sense. Another quirky scenario, what if he had won that Hart as a member of another team? This is certainly a stretch in terms of Sundin winning a lifetime achievement award, but what if he won the Hart this year because no one is really standing out (which really, no one is)? How would we include that for him in terms of greatest Leafs? He won it with another team, but it was for his entire body of work. Now that you've stopped laughing at the thought of Sundin winning a lifetime achievement Hart, do you know what I mean? It's not a knock on Teeder and it certainly is an honour to be given that... honour as a Leaf and for his career as a Leaf, I definitely agree with you there. But at the same time, it's unfortunate to the guy who "should have" won it (or finished ahead of him.)

Edit: It does say something about his entire career for sure and I am taking that into account in my list. Personally, I have him higher than Keon and in my Top 5 on my list and I don't see any reasoning to change that whether this award was for a year or a career. It got him just slightly ahead of Paul Fenton, but I think that he's worthy.

[TuckerIntensity1]

Oh fine, we won't rank them!

[TuckerIntensity1]

First question, why George Armstrong and where does he fit in the Top Ten?


Next question, can we talk about names not listed?

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (dreakmur @ May 28 2009, 04:42 PM)

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Not too bad for a start. If Tim Horton was there instead of Armstrong, it would be pretty much right on.

So we've now got four that think Armstrong should be out? As I do to.

Edit: And I agree bang on with you there dreak. I knew when Armstrong was in, someone had to be out from my Top Ten, I was surprised when I saw it was Horton.

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ May 28 2009, 10:55 PM)

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Not as much as they loved Tie. Bohonos was only here for 9 games, Domi for 10½ seasons. His is one of the best selling jerseys ever. You cannot compare the two.

It's a cold day in hell when I rate a player higher than another because his jersey sales were good.

QUOTE (spinner @ May 28 2009, 10:55 PM)

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These trophies tell us a lot about who brought it in the playoffs when we were not around to see it. Teeder Kennedy has an unmatched 3 Conn Smythe trophies (in 4 years). That is absolutely incredible. Charlie Conacher and Syl Apps have one each (from this list of forwards).

I'm not going to lie, although I don't put him at one, you've sold me on Teeder being higher than I've seen him elsewhere.

QUOTE (joyzee guy @ May 28 2009, 10:58 PM)

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^ Agreed, I'm way ahead of myself.

My intent in broaching the subject of fan favorites was only to try and establish a principle arounf how we treat such things...but when spinner threw Domi out as an example, I took the bait.

No worries, I am in on it too. Just didn't want to get too carried away with ourselves about a guy that won't be talked about for a long time.

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ May 29 2009, 09:29 AM)

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LOL, I knew you would say that! Anyway, "jersey sales" was just an idiom. I am talking about a player's worth to the organization vs. a player's worth to hockey. Domi obviously ranks higher in Toronto than anywhere else. Another perfect example is Mats Sundin. How many Leaf records does he hold? This obviously puts him higher (even relatively speaking) on a Leafs list than it does on an All Time list.

The latter half is very true. On an ATD list he'd pale in comparison to Sawchuk, but on this it's opposite. I just don't think Domi's worth to fans outweighs the quality of other players, but I suppose we'll see when we get there.

QUOTE (spinner @ May 29 2009, 09:29 AM)

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Awesome! I think Teeder deserves it. My respect for him has grown in leaps and bounds since the ATD last year.

I personally don't see anymore why Keon is rated the highest Leaf in a lot of places, nor how he can be more than one spot above Teeder. I put him below Kennedy myself, but if they were handcuffed before and after each other, that's probably fair. Having said that, I hope the final list has Kennedy in the Top 3 and ahead of Keon as that's how I feel about them. But in all honesty, those big four are all pretty close (toss in Conacher and Apps). I know Keon has the only "Conn Smythe," but like you said, three retros for Kennedy puts him in some really fine territory. Does that make him one of two (Patrick Roy)? My mind is only seeing those two, but I feel I'm missing another, I don't know why.

[TuckerIntensity1]

That's five for Horton in the Top Ten.

[TuckerIntensity1]

I've got t agree with Spinner's notion here, but not necessarily enough for me to put Conacher under Kennedy. Sundin and Gilmour are nothing like these two because even in Sundin's longevity, his peaks weren't near as close to Gilmour's and the playoff numbers of the two are so far apart it isn't funny.

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Feb 4 2009, 12:57 AM)

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Since the main thread is the site of a million different discussions, we may as well take Hef's idea and create a separate thread to discuss solely the first 10 names. Here they are again (in alphabetical order):

Syl Apps (1936-1948)
George Armstrong (1951-1971)
Johnny Bower (1958-1970)
Walter “Turk” Broda (1936-1952)
Charlie Conacher (1929-1938)
Ted "Teeder" Kennedy (1942-1957)
Dave Keon (1960-1975)
Frank Mahovlich (1957-1968)
Börje Salming (1973-1989)
Daryl Sittler (1970-1982)

So we're not allowed to mention the glaring omission?

Of these guys, it's going to be hard to convince me that Armstrong should be higher than the tenth name on this list. The Top Five for me at this point (from this list) consists of Apps, Broda, Conacher, Kennedy and Keon. Leaving Bower, Mahovlich, Salming and Sittler to duke it out for 5-9. I had nine of these guys in my Top Ten and Armstrong just outside of it (I think at 12.) I earlier thought Conacher as a #1, but I've been a lot more towards Apps for that spot since then with Conacher, Kennedy, and Keon behind in that order. I'm not 100% sold on that order though, even if I'm sold on certain parts inside of it (I'm pretty set on Kennedy over Keon and very set on Broda being the fifth best of those, but really, can anyone (spinner) make an argument for Kennedy at #1? Or someone as to why I was wrong to move Conacher down?

[TuckerIntensity1]

QUOTE (spinner @ Jun 5 2009, 09:05 AM)

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The way I see it, there are several tiers within the top 10:

- Apps, Kennedy, Keon are my top 3, not necessarily in this order.
- Conacher makes a strong case for the top 3 but I cannot bump any of the other guys for him
- Broda goes ahead of Bower but they are probably close; throw Mahovlich and Sittler in this group
- Armstrong is out of the top 10 altogether when Horton comes in

I know Salming belongs in there somewhere but not sure where. He is my all time favourite Leaf so I have to put my feelings aside and try to look at him objectively. At the same time, I don't want to be too critical of him just for the sake of being objective.

I don't know Salming's exact placement either and I also was a big fan of his, I actually have him as the second best Leaf defenceman, Horton is a lot lower than I expected him. A lot. I forget exactly where I had him, I'm guessing 7 or 8 with Horton one or two ahead of that. It's really tight for some of these guys, I think I had him ahead of Sittler and possibly Mahovlich, but I don't have it in front of me.

[TuckerIntensity1]

It boggles my mind that Horton isn't in these ten names. As I said, he was better than Salming overall and as koho and others have alluded to, his offensive game wasn't too shabby (the same can be said for Salming's defensive game though.)