64 replies to this topic

[sluggo]

So on TSN's off-season plan articals they have a player rating system they describe as:

The TSN.ca Rating is an efficiency rating based on per-game statistics including goals and assists -- weighted for strength (ie. power play, even, shorthanded) -- plus-minus, hits, blocked shots, giveaways, takeaways, penalty differential and faceoffs. (Stats are listed in this format: G-A-PTS, +/-, PIM, GP). Generally, a replacement-level player is around a 60, a top six forward and top four defenceman will be 70-plus and the biggest stars will be over 80. Evgeni Malkin finished at the top of the regular season ratings with a 93.12.

For a while I've been trying to point the Leafs lack of high end talent and impactful talent. People keep telling me Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, and even Grabovski are those players for the Leafs. Well, lets compare those players scores with some other playeres around the league's scores.

Kessel - 77.71
Lupul - 78.24
Grabovski - 70.86
Phaneuf 73.86

No other leaf player rates as a top 6 forward or top 4 D-man....... Oh and our starting goalie doesn't even rank as a replacment player.

Max Pacioretty has a ranking of 77.25
PK Subban has 71.63
Eberle has a 77.35
Nash had a 74 this year, but in past years (when hes not having an off-year) his score has been much higher).
Nikitin and Wisniewski both have 73 scores (so the Leafs captain, "franchise" D-man, core player is as good as those two......wow).
Tavares had a 79, so more impactful then Kessel as well.

I'll add more to this when they come out, but it should put the Leafs player and how good and impactful they really are in perspective. When the Leafs "best player, 40 goal scorer, the guy can't trade etc...." is no more effeciant/good/impactful then Mac Pacioretty........you need to re-evulate how you judge a player.

[Topleft11]

I agree our city and Gms overate our players tremendously. We need more high end talent and balance. They become very cautious for some reason. I respect Philly and LA because of there balls and ability to recognize what will fit for there teams. What could Burke possibly of thought picking up Connoly. If you dont have or cant get the proper players play our prospects and wait for the right players. I am a Kessel fan but hes just a player we shouldnt stop with one decent player. From Chicago to La theyve all got 4 to 5 players of Kessels overall calibre. Lupol was shipped from Aneheim cause they considered him a second line winger, we think hes our savior and dont get me sarted on Gardiner(this 19 yr old 4 year soft dman is our cornerstone?). I really like Bozak but why is he still here or at least playing 3 line duties. It would take an act of congress to get a big softy in Penner on our team. If this doesnt work in the next 2 years bring back Quinn so at least are team is balanced. Should have got Bertuzzi 5 years ago. hed probobly be our second best player.

[sluggo]

I agree our city and Gms overate our players tremendously. We need more high end talent and balance. They become very cautious for some reason. I respect Philly and LA because of there balls and ability to recognize what will fit for there teams. What could Burke possibly of thought picking up Connoly. If you dont have or cant get the proper players play our prospects and wait for the right players. I am a Kessel fan but hes just a player we shouldnt stop with one decent player. From Chicago to La theyve all got 4 to 5 players of Kessels overall calibre. Lupol was shipped from Aneheim cause they considered him a second line winger, we think hes our savior and dont get me sarted on Gardiner(this 19 yr old 4 year soft dman is our cornerstone?). I really like Bozak but why is he still here or at least playing 3 line duties. It would take an act of congress to get a big softy in Penner on our team. If this doesnt work in the next 2 years bring back Quinn so at least are team is balanced. Should have got Bertuzzi 5 years ago. hed probobly be our second best player.

the Hakws nad Kings have severeal players ABOVE Kessels caliber. Toews, Kane, Hossa, Kopita, Brown, Richards - all players BETTER then Kessel, not on the same level.

[RPaj]

I don't think many people here say Kessel is elite, because he's not. He's a great player who is developing every year, and there aren't many elite players to begin with. Lets take Tavares for example, here is a franchise player, and he's only got a number similar to Kessel's? how accurate can this list really be? because I'd take Tavares over Kessel in a heart beat, regardless of what number you put in front of me. And in my opinion, Kessel is the best forward on that list, besides Tavares, who is better than Kessel by a fair margin.

Also, when we have a historic collapse like we did, of course our numbers for dmen and players won't be great, and neither will our goalies. I don't take anything away from these numbers, its like the QB rating for the NFL, its rubbish.

The point I'm trying to make is that numbers don't always tell you who the better player is, which is kinda what you're trying to point out.

[sluggo]

I don't think many people here say Kessel is elite, because he's not. He's a great player who is developing every year, and there aren't many elite players to begin with. Lets take Tavares for example, here is a franchise player, and he's only got a number similar to Kessel's? how accurate can this list really be? because I'd take Tavares over Kessel in a heart beat, regardless of what number you put in front of me. And in my opinion, Kessel is a better player than any of those listed, and Tavares is better than Kessel by a fair margin....how accurate can these numbers really be?

Also, when we have a historic collapse like we did, of course our numbers for dmen and players won't be great, and neither will our goalies. I don't take anything away from these numbers, its like the QB rating for the NFL, its rubbish.

Kessel is 24 years old (25 next year), in his prime, not developing, not getting better, not getting more consistant, apart from a hot 21 game stretch at the start of the season, he was the same old inconsistant, 30 goal winger he has always been. Tavares is 21 years old, getting better every season, unlike Kessel who has been the samething for 3-4 seasons now.

Kessel is better then all those forwards listed? How so? The numbers don't lie do they? Those all those players have a similiar impact ont he game.

But you see, a team crashs like it did becauwse the players on the team aren't able to have the impact that better players do. If they were impact players the team wouldn't crash and burn in the first place. The players cause the collapse, the collapse doesn't make good players stats worse.

[RPaj]

Kessel is 24 years old (25 next year), in his prime, not developing, not getting better, not getting more consistant, apart from a hot 21 game stretch at the start of the season, he was the same old inconsistant, 30 goal winger he has always been. Tavares is 21 years old, getting better every season, unlike Kessel who has been the samething for 3-4 seasons now.

Kessel is better then all those forwards listed? How so? The numbers don't lie do they? Those all those players have a similiar impact ont he game.

But you see, a team crashs like it did becauwse the players on the team aren't able to have the impact that better players do. If they were impact players the team wouldn't crash and burn in the first place. The players cause the collapse, the collapse doesn't make good players stats worse.

Kessel isn't getting better? now thats just blind hate right there, really don't know if I can even have a discussion with you regarding him.

Kessel is getting better, he's developing into a heck of a playmaker, and you want to make an excuse that he got hot for a 20 game stretch, well of course he did. So did every other player who was near his point range. You don't get 82 points by sucking and only getting hot for 21 games. You also forget to mention that Kessel was playing with a third like center in Bozak, and Connolly who couldn't fit in with the Leafs from day one. You also forget to mention that Lupul went out with 15-20 games left, or whatever it was, and that Kessel had a line of Connolly/Lombardi/Bozak, you really think he can succeed with those type of players around him?

Stop hating on him and diminishing his accomplishments for this season. He had an offensive minded coach, who preached a run n' gun system since he got here, and I saw big defensive improvements under Carlyle. If you didn't see them, well you really are blinded by hate.

I only brought Tavares' numbers up because its a joke of a system. A FRANCHISE player in Tavares, has the same numbers as Kessel. Tavares is way better, and yet he has the same numbers? we all know who we would take to be our franchise player, and thats where these numbers are skewed. Like I said, numbers don't tell the whole story, same like the QB rating in the NFL. Its better to take a sack in the NFL, and lose 8 yards and get your team out of a first down position, than avoid a sack, and throw the ball away. These numbers simply don't tell the whole story, and if you want to continue trying to prove a point on why Kessel sucks, then by all means, continue your preaching being driven by blind hate.

Eberle also played with a great lineup for the majority of the season, give Kessel RNC or Hall to play with, lets see his numbers go even higher.

[J-BOLD]

24 years old isn't "In his prime" for an NHL forward.

Forwards usually hit their prime when they're 26-30.

Kessel has been getting better and better each season. Turning into an 80+ point elite winger. Without a top center.

[howiegethere]

It is great that TSN can clear that up for us all especially the Leafs management and the scouting staff . We all know that the TSN analysis guys arebetter than the Leafs player scouting team and that the Leafs management is out to lunch on these facts .
Makes perfect sense to me to believe a reporter over guys that make their living sorting out the players abilities and talent .
Ever wonder why Burke has been trying to get an elite franchise player for the past 4 years ? maybe wonder why BB is looking to sign a veteran goalie and some bigger players ?
This is just the same old news with a different spin and some stats .

[howiegethere]

24 years old isn't "In his prime" for an NHL forward.

Forwards usually hit their prime when they're 26-30.

Kessel has been getting better and better each season. Turning into an 80+ point elite winger. Without a top center.

Can I get some of whatever it is your smoking ?

[Drachenberg]

Kessel's just entering his prime. I don't believe we've seen the best of him yet. Suggesting he's at his peak at just age 24 is pretty ridiculous.

[Boneshaker]

The lack of top-end talent has been something that has plagued this organization for the last few years. I will admit, Kessel is great, and fulfills his role as an elite sniper and scorer, but is he a "Franchise" player.....no. We don't have have one, and haven't had one since Sundin (and even his last few years were debatable).

But those guys are hard to acquire. At best there's only 15 or so of them in the league each year. If you have one great. If you have 2 like Pittsburgh then your spoiled...LOL. Let's face it, it would take a King's ransom to get one of them, or we have to draft one and wait for them to pan out. That's the reality of the league nowadays....

[El-Zilcho]

Can I get some of whatever it is your smoking ?

.. Don't tell me you're agreeing with Sluggo and his "players dont improve past the age of 21/22 idea. Grabo came over at about the same age Kessel is now. He was a shoot-first puck-hog who barely played defense. Now hes probably our best two way forward and a terrific playmaker.

[calvina7x]

.. Don't tell me you're agreeing with Sluggo and his "players dont improve past the age of 21/22 idea. Grabo came over at about the same age Kessel is now. He was a shoot-first puck-hog who barely played defense. Now hes probably our best two way forward and a terrific playmaker.

under ron wilson too i might add.


Eh, another pointless article to put players down. Its like excuses to make fun of players and make them look bad.

[sluggo]

Kessel hasn't improved since he's been here. He is the same 30 goal, 65 point player he has been for the last 4 seasons. He's to getting better, he's not developing a more well rounded game, he's not going tone an elite talent. He hasn't had a positive impact on the team.

[Pawchio]

the great sluggo cries again... about kessel. did you get any GM position in the beer league yet?

[youngbud]

Our best all around player since Matts Sundin. Captain Matts who bled blue and white for 13 freaking years. No other leaf has put up as many points in a season in blue and white in a light year it seems and Kessel matched that. Look at how good Matts was in his career dude. We now have a guy who has matched Sundin's level of excellence this past season, and you are trying to tell me that's not good enough?

Sluggo, your a good guy, I love reading your arguments, but please come back into the light brother.... .
Kessel is a good player. No ifs ands or buts. If Kessel is not a positive influence on this team, I would hate to see negative that's for damn sure...LOL.

[jigson]

Great find Sluggo !!

Job well done.
You managed to find some more useless stats created by some cheese eating, talking heads, that supports your argument against the leafs and their players.

You must be beaming with pride.

[J-BOLD]

the great sluggo cries again... about kessel. did you get any GM position in the beer league yet?

He was fired from the NHL12 be a GM mode.

LOL

[Seer]

"He said, She said..." TSN = "Terribly Sarcastic Narrators"... Just like gossip on ET Canada, to me.... Has about as much attachment for me, as used toilet paper...

Are you still trying to believe that Kessel hasn't improved, Slug..? As soon as Carlyle got here, it was like the teacher slapped the ruler on the front desk & got Phil's attention.. LOL!

He needs to work on his defensive game.... yes... But, to not see the benefits he brings to this team is just being blind.....

.....

[sluggo]

"He said, She said..." TSN = "Terribly Sarcastic Narrators"... Just like gossip on ET Canada, to me.... Has about as much attachment for me, as used toilet paper...

Are you still trying to believe that Kessel hasn't improved, Slug..? As soon as Carlyle got here, it was like the teacher slapped the ruler on the front desk & got Phil's attention.. LOL!

He needs to work on his defensive game.... yes... But, to not see the benefits he brings to this team is just being blind.....

.....

How has he improved. Outside of the first 21 games this year, he's the same player he's been for 4 years now.