118 replies to this topic

[Euronuck]

Found this quite the interesting read and really explains alot of how I've felt on the subject most have been addressing and which started more then a few heated debates.

One part of the article that I really felt was good was addressing the Carter trade. Now everyone always likes to go on that we could have traded for him and it would be great. Still he didn't work out with Nash so what is to say he works out with us.

Also I guess people could apply this same situation to the Mike Richards lost oppurtunity, which it never was as Holmgren never got back to Burke after having heard the Kings offer.

Here is the link to the article:

http://mapleleafshot...-us/#more-29130

[sluggo]

Found this quite the interesting read and really explains alot of how I've felt on the subject most have been addressing and which started more then a few heated debates.

One part of the article that I really felt was good was addressing the Carter trade. Now everyone always likes to go on that we could have traded for him and it would be great. Still he didn't work out with Nash so what is to say he works out with us.

Also I guess people could apply this same situation to the Mike Richards lost oppurtunity, which it never was as Holmgren never got back to Burke after having heard the Kings offer.

Here is the link to the article:

http://mapleleafshot...-us/#more-29130

Of course it was a missed oppertunity, Burke could have pulled the trigger on what was a good deal when he was on the phone with Holmgren and not given the Kings the change to make an offer.

And I don't remember hearing the Leafs being in on any deals at the trade line, except for a new Nash rumor every 3 hours. The only deals I heard about were ones he didn't take for draft picks. Not giving up a couple playersl ike Grabovski, Kulemin - who aren't doing anything on the Leafs for futures.....thats just a missed oppertunity.

Gardiner for Carter (again, don't remember hearing it at the time, but......maybe I'm just forgetting), it depends on what you think Gardiner will be. REmember, a 30 goal center isn't excatly......average or medicore or something to be dismissed. Only 30 PLAYERS in the NHL had 30 goals this years. 9 of them were centers. So you'd be getting one of the top 10-15 goal scoring centers in the league, who also has size and isn't terrible in his own zone. Is going to be a top 10 or 15 producing D-man in the league? He is going to be Dan Boyle or Brent Burns? How long will take him to get there? What other options do they realisticlly have?

One of the things I find most fustrating about Burke is that he is not doing what the author of that artical is saying he is doing or should be doing. He talks about taking time to do things right, respecting the proccess etc... but Burke isn't doing that. The point of almost all this moves have been to fast track that proccess. He brought in Gerber to win more games. He brought in Kessel to make the playoffs right away. He brought in Phaneuf, Komisarek, Beauchemin, and Versteeg for immidate improvement. He traded Poni for Caputi instead of picks cause Caputi was susposed to contribute right away. He signed Connolly instead of letting Kadri and Colborne battle for a roster spot. Even though they had Gardiner and Holzer they signed Liles and traded for Franson. He didn't did try to move a veteran for a forward prospect, he moved Aulie. He traded a 24 year old, developing Stalberg etc.... And look at the rumors out there now. Hes looking at Nash, Luongo, Vokoun, Parise etc...

But then he has an offer for Mike Richards, guy who would solve a LOT of their problems, and he doesn't pull the trigger. Carter is there, he doesn't pull the trigger. If he was taking his time, building the right way, building slowing, respecting the proccess etc.. it would all make sense, but thats not what hes doing. If the team is built to win now, all your moves have been geared toward winning now, when you have the oppertunity to get one of those missing pieces.....

What is Burkes goal for next season?

[Euronuck]

If you are a GM and you are shopping a major piece like Richards you take the time to listen to all offers. Burke had offered Kulemin and Kadri for Richards. LA countered with Schenn, Simmonds and a 2nd round pick. Holmgren never called Burke back. Even if Burke had tossed in our 1st rnd pick if you are Holmgren do you take that trade? Or do you trade the guy outside of your conference so that the deal doesn't come back to haunt you in multiple games?

[sluggo]

If you are a GM and you are shopping a major piece like Richards you take the time to listen to all offers. Burke had offered Kulemin and Kadri for Richards. LA countered with Schenn, Simmonds and a 2nd round pick. Holmgren never called Burke back. Even if Burke had tossed in our 1st rnd pick if you are Holmgren do you take that trade? Or do you trade the guy outside of your conference so that the deal doesn't come back to haunt you in multiple games?

Then shouldn't Holmgren have called Burke back and say "LA just offered me Schenn, Simmonds and a pick, if you add X to Kulemin and kadri you can have him"?

The Kulemin and Kadri offer was on the table, Burke said he had to think about it/talk it over with his guys, and while he was doing that the Kings and Flyers pulled the trigger on the deal. Burke could have pulled the trigger and the Kings never get the chance to make an offer.

At the time, the leafs offer was very comparable to the Kings. Kulemin was coming off a 30 goal season and people on here were calling hima core guy they could build around. Simmonds had scored half that. Schenn was a better prospect then kadri, but the leafs were giving up a better looking "known" player. If the Leafs add a pick, yes I think theres a very good chance the flyers see the Leafs offer as better. And that "don't trade int he conference" thing appears to be bigger among fans then GM's. GM's will take the best return they can get, period.

[Euronuck]

The thing is Holmgren DID NOT CALL HIM BACK. He didn't give Burke a chance to counter offer. GM's do indeed take the best return they can get, yet if you have 2 offers that look equal, yet one is to a team you will face multiple times a year and the other is to a team that you face maybe once a season.

Also Schenn was the higher ranked prospect then Kadri, yes Kulemin was more attractive then Simmonds.

Also to factor into the equation is you are trading out a center and your prospect pool is thin in those regards. Do you take the guy that has actually show an ability to play that position or a guy that has already been pegged as more effective as a winger in the NHL?

[sluggo]

The thing is Holmgren DID NOT CALL HIM BACK. He didn't give Burke a chance to counter offer. GM's do indeed take the best return they can get, yet if you have 2 offers that look equal, yet one is to a team you will face multiple times a year and the other is to a team that you face maybe once a season.

Also Schenn was the higher ranked prospect then Kadri, yes Kulemin was more attractive then Simmonds.

Also to factor into the equation is you are trading out a center and your prospect pool is thin in those regards. Do you take the guy that has actually show an ability to play that position or a guy that has already been pegged as more effective as a winger in the NHL?

Holmgren didn't call him back, BUT Burke put himself in a position were they needed to have another conversation. He should have pulled the trigger during the conversation where the Flyers asked for Kulemin and Kadri.

The Flyers still had Giroux, and Briere. They had the 8th pick in the draft, they were likely to get a center, which they did. Still lots of time to convert Kadri to center. I don't see need at center being what pushed it to the Kings favor. The Kings added a pick, the Flyers liked the deal, the Kings probably put some pressure on, and the Flyers took it. because Burke needed to think it over, he lost out.

Regardless, Burke missed out on Richards, he missed out on carter (twice). He missed out on Ladd and Byfuglien. He missed out on Horton. He missed out on Neal. Richars isn't the only one he missed.

As I said, one of my big issues with Burke and what hte artical missed, is that Burke isn't taking the slow, patient, respect the proccess way himself, so why should fans pretend he is and give him lots and lots of rope?

[Euronuck]

Where are you getting this Burke had to think over it thing from? You are just adding that to the debate because it some how makes it sway more to your side when you have no idea if Burke said, let me get back to you on that. When in fact it could have been Holmgren saying I'll get back to you.

29 other GM's also missed out on those players.

[sluggo]

Where are you getting this Burke had to think over it thing from? You are just adding that to the debate because it some how makes it sway more to your side when you have no idea if Burke said, let me get back to you on that. When in fact it could have been Holmgren saying I'll get back to you.

29 other GM's also missed out on those players.

Every report about the deal at the time. Thats why the deal wasn't made when the two were talking.

Burke has been talking about getting big, tough players since he got here. He said he won't build through the draft and has tried to do through free ageny and trades, yet he has missed out on just about every power forward thats been traded since he got here. Thats a failure on his part. You don't get a big tough team by trading for Versteeg and not Ladd and/or Byfuglien.

[Poyetas]

Sluggo is right, Burke never intended a slow rebuild when he got here...hence the Kessel deal. He miscalculated how good this team was. The notion that he is taking the correct approach by being patient 3-4 years after he started is a flawed argument. Unless of course, you are willing to admit that he messed up big time....

[racer888]

I have to agree with Sluggo and Poyetas on this count. Next year is going to be very interesting

[PuQ]

Where are you getting this Burke had to think over it thing from? You are just adding that to the debate because it some how makes it sway more to your side when you have no idea if Burke said, let me get back to you on that. When in fact it could have been Holmgren saying I'll get back to you.

29 other GM's also missed out on those players.

Yes... 28 other GM's also missed out on those players.

Why? because Schenn was the centre piece period!

All this gossip about who didnt call who back is hearsay and the usual gossip by the hens on this board.

I can just imagine the complaining now if we had traded Kulie Kadri and our 5th overall for Richards and still missed the playoffs

[Seer]

Found this quite the interesting read and really explains alot of how I've felt on the subject most have been addressing and which started more then a few heated debates.

One part of the article that I really felt was good was addressing the Carter trade. Now everyone always likes to go on that we could have traded for him and it would be great. Still he didn't work out with Nash so what is to say he works out with us.

Also I guess people could apply this same situation to the Mike Richards lost oppurtunity, which it never was as Holmgren never got back to Burke after having heard the Kings offer.

Here is the link to the article:

http://mapleleafshot...-us/#more-29130

I wanted B. Schenn for the longest time, so that is the out-of-the-box factor that disappointed me with the outcome of the deal...

Sometimes you make good decisions.. and other times you make bad ones... If I tally up everything that Burke has done here, I still come up with a positive... Anyone out there who says they never make mistakes in their jobs are just lying and living in a fantasy world... It happens to the best of us...

As far as the digression of this thread to another Sluggo... "close your eyes & ears.. and hate Burke thread".., I will leave my response to this...

[jigson]

Funny thing is, if Burke hadn't said, "I'll talk to my people and get back to you, and had pulled the trigger right there and then, he would be criticized for making a hasty decision"

[jockdent]

Sluggo is right, Burke never intended a slow rebuild when he got here...hence the Kessel deal. He miscalculated how good this team was. The notion that he is taking the correct approach by being patient 3-4 years after he started is a flawed argument. Unless of course, you are willing to admit that he messed up big time....

No, No Poy; Burke didn't mess up.

He just EXPLORED OTHER OPTIONS.

Man, if I had been familiar with that phrase, a few years ago; I could have used it on my prof, every time I messed up in calculus.

LOL

[calvina7x]

Found this quite the interesting read and really explains alot of how I've felt on the subject most have been addressing and which started more then a few heated debates.

One part of the article that I really felt was good was addressing the Carter trade. Now everyone always likes to go on that we could have traded for him and it would be great. Still he didn't work out with Nash so what is to say he works out with us.

Also I guess people could apply this same situation to the Mike Richards lost oppurtunity, which it never was as Holmgren never got back to Burke after having heard the Kings offer.

Here is the link to the article:

http://mapleleafshot...-us/#more-29130

see , THIS is how you post articles on the forum.

[sluggo]

Sluggo is right, Burke never intended a slow rebuild when he got here...hence the Kessel deal. He miscalculated how good this team was. The notion that he is taking the correct approach by being patient 3-4 years after he started is a flawed argument. Unless of course, you are willing to admit that he messed up big time....

He still isn't taking the patient approach. Hes holding onto the group hes put together,e ven though its proven they aren't good enough, is going to try to quick fix the team by signing a goalie liek Vokoun.

I wanted B. Schenn for the longest time, so that is the out-of-the-box factor that disappointed me with the outcome of the deal...

Sometimes you make good decisions.. and other times you make bad ones... If I tally up everything that Burke has done here, I still come up with a positive... Anyone out there who says they never make mistakes in their jobs are just lying and living in a fantasy world... It happens to the best of us...

As far as the digression of this thread to another Sluggo... "close your eyes & ears.. and hate Burke thread".., I will leave my response to this...

So Burke is done more good then bad, yet the team has only gotten worse while hes been here and he has yet to put the pieces in place to give them a bright future to look forward too......... You need to recheck that math.

[Poyetas]

No, No Poy; Burke didn't mess up.

He just EXPLORED OTHER OPTIONS.

Man, if I had been familiar with that phrase, a few years ago; I could have used it on my prof, every time I messed up in calculus.

LOL

LOL! I love it...I need to use that one next time I mess up as well...

[youngbud]

Ya, I don't think it is fair that, Holmgren did not call Burke Back, and give him a chance to up the ante so to speak. I mean is that not the respectful thing to do? Lots of GM's put an offer out there, and then re-tinker the initial offer. Look at when the Jays traded Roy Halliday, we actually flipped a couple of the guys they offered us for other prospects we thought were further along. Also when we made the Wells trade, we could have had mike napoli but we passed on him, in order to bulk up on prospects and stuff like that.

So, I guess what I'm saying is when you make a trade offer, that does not mean it is all set in stone and you can't change your mind or sweeten the pot. I'm sorry but the whole richards deal is a FARCE, we never had him, end of story. The way I see it, what Holmgren did was pretty low and backhanded. You have an offer from one guy, and you go behind his back and pull the trigger with another club and don't give him the chance to counter? That sounds like a set-up to me. Get over it guys, Richards was never going to come here. He laughed at a picture of himself in a leaf uniform remember?

Ya he basically laughed in the face of this franchise...you really want a guy like that on the team now?

[motercitysmitty]

Where are you getting this Burke had to think over it thing from? You are just adding that to the debate because it some how makes it sway more to your side when you have no idea if Burke said, let me get back to you on that. When in fact it could have been Holmgren saying I'll get back to you.

29 other GM's also missed out on those players.

I agree mr sluggo is out to lunch . I guess he was sitting at burkes desk playing with his blackberries
On another note it was an interesting article thanks for posting it.

[motercitysmitty]

No, No Poy; Burke didn't mess up.

He just EXPLORED OTHER OPTIONS.

Man, if I had been familiar with that phrase, a few years ago; I could have used it on my prof, every time I messed up in calculus.

LOL

Do you really think it is necessary for this type of language, others have been severely reprimanded for less.