118 replies to this topic

[howiegethere]

Okay, so for the last 3 years, Edmonton has finished poorly in the standings, and the Leafs have finished poorly in the standings.

The question becomes, how have the two teams prepared for the future?

In Edmonton, I see 3 great core players, and another 1st overall pick for this year.

For the Leafs, I see only average talent, and a very weak core.

Who do you think is better positioned in the rebuild?

Edmonton is already rebuilt they are just gaining experience and adding a few pieces to make them contenders . They get a couple strong D men to lead them they are looking way better than the Leafs .

[sluggo]

New Jersey Devils and LA Kings, 2 teams who didnt have a full rebuild

Really? Brown 13th, Kopitar 11th, Doughty 2nd. They got Richards by trading a player they picked 5th overall. Plus Quick was a 4th round pick, Clifford a 2nd rounder. They turned Teubert (13th overall) into Penner. Lewis was 17th overall.

Each year between 04 and 06 they had the 11th overall pick, and from 07-09 they had top 5 picks.

The Kings spent 7 years out of the playoffs, 3 with lottery picks, they aquired some really high end talent that the team is now built around. They aquired some key pieces (Richards, Penner) by trading some of those highly drafted assets.

Ya, the Kings didn't have a full rebuild at all..............

[sluggo]

Edmonton is already rebuilt they are just gaining experience and adding a few pieces to make them contenders . They get a couple strong D men to lead them they are looking way better than the Leafs .

The Oilers have the kind of players that are extremely hard to come by. Hall, Eberle, Hopkins. Those 3 players are difference between the Oilers and the Leafs. 3 players who look like you can build a team around them, the leafs don't have 1 player like that. Thats what rebuilding is about, aquiring that core of players or 1 player you need to build around.

People like jbold who don't understand that, will hold up a team like the Ducks or Bruins or Wings who won a cup without rebuilding, but what they don't do is look at those teams and how they did it. The Ducks and Bruins took advantage of a very unique situation and got franchise D-men (the kind of player who don't normally become UFA's). If there is no lock out, Chara is still a Senator and Neidermayer is still a Devil. And the Wings have built the same way we're saying you need to build, they just got lucky and got those core players with later picks. If anyone knows what 5th round pick is going to be a top 5 players in the world....please, let us all know.

[J-BOLD]

Yup, Kings built their team by a few good picks.

And built it by trading for established guys like Richards,Penner and Carter.

So far, the Leafs are picking 5th this year, picked Schenn and Kadri with their other picks.

So much for having to tank for 4 seasons.

Not bad.

[Euronuck]

As for people that keep pointing to Yzerman the guy was drafted in 83. They won the first of those cups in 96. So let's say Burke did hold on to Seguin, are you going to wait 13 years for your shot at the cup? Hahahaha you guys are getting your panties in a bunch over 3 1/2 years that Burke has been working as GM.
To be fair before I get this also thrown at me yes they were division champs in 87 so still 4 years.

As far as Seguin, he is playing on a team with better players on his line and that just won the cup.

Now put him on Toronto with the players we would of had without any of our trades. No way he is putting up those numbers, if he was even in the NHL at all yet.

[jockdent]

As for people that keep pointing to Yzerman the guy was drafted in 83. They won the first of those cups in 96. So let's say Burke did hold on to Seguin, are you going to wait 13 years for your shot at the cup? Hahahaha you guys are getting your panties in a bunch over 3 1/2 years that Burke has been working as GM.
To be fair before I get this also thrown at me yes they were division champs in 87 so still 4 years.

As far as Seguin, he is playing on a team with better players on his line and that just won the cup.

Now put him on Toronto with the players we would of had without any of our trades. No way he is putting up those numbers, if he was even in the NHL at all yet.

Leaf fans have the unjust label of being impatient.

I think 80% of true Leaf fans were willing to wait at least 5 years for an intelligent rebuild.

It was BURKE, who was impatient.

Fans like me, are now complaining, because we are 3 1/2 years into Burke's rebuild; and the foundation of the rebuild is faulty.

This rebuild, thus far, is destined for failure; unless it is almost totally changed.

If it needs to be almost totally changed; then how effective is Burke's work?

Oh sure, he has drafted some average players; and he has brought in some average players; but ask yourself this.

Do we have a core which is capable of winning a Stanley Cup?

Is Phaneuf a Stanley Cup captain? Is Kessel a Stanley Cup scorer? Is Grabovski a Stanley Cup centre?

I don't think so.

[sluggo]

Yup, Kings built their team by a few good picks.

And built it by trading for established guys like Richards,Penner and Carter.

So far, the Leafs are picking 5th this year, picked Schenn and Kadri with their other picks.

So much for having to tank for 4 seasons.

Not bad.

Kadri and Schenn are not even close to Kopitar and Doughty. Are you really making that comparison? And even if Burke hits a home run with this pick, its 1 player. How teams win with 1 player? You know who else has 1 player? The Islanders. The Blue jackets. How'd they do? The "established" talent the Leafs have traded for, havn't produced. Kessel isn't impactful. Phaneuf is playing like a 2nd pairing guy. Lupul isn't an elite player etc.... The Kings got impactful players to complement the young core they drafted and developed. The Leafs have tried to build a core through trades and free agent signings, and its completely back fired.

Oh, and the Leafs have tanked for 4 seasons, but Kadri isn't a top line, impactful player, and they used two top picks to get Kessel, who hasn't had any impact.

As for people that keep pointing to Yzerman the guy was drafted in 83. They won the first of those cups in 96. So let's say Burke did hold on to Seguin, are you going to wait 13 years for your shot at the cup? Hahahaha you guys are getting your panties in a bunch over 3 1/2 years that Burke has been working as GM.
To be fair before I get this also thrown at me yes they were division champs in 87 so still 4 years.

As far as Seguin, he is playing on a team with better players on his line and that just won the cup.

Now put him on Toronto with the players we would of had without any of our trades. No way he is putting up those numbers, if he was even in the NHL at all yet.

He was drafted in 83......and? Was he on longer on the team when they won? Was he not their captain? Their top line center? One of the best players in the world? What does being drafted in 83 and winning in 96 have to do with anything?

So what player has Burke brought in that is like Yzerman? You're Burke hasn't had enough time, he has been here 4 years, he has had 3 drafts and 3 top 10 picks. What great talent has be brought in? He traded for kessel? Another GM said Kessel isn't even the kind of player a team really needs. Phaneuf? I said when they got Phaneuf that he has all the tools to be one of the best D-men in the league he just has to put it together........well its still in pieces. If Burke had aquired (either through draft or trade) some talent like Yzerman, you wouldn't see people critise him.

Love how people are so quick to say its not Seguin, its everyone else on the team. Hes a great talent. Hes got franchise player potential. He LEAD that team in points and goals. Hes 20 years old and he out produced EVERYONE on the defending cup winning team, while 11 of them got more ice-time. Seguin is one of the best, young players in the NHL and the Leafs would be in a much better position with him right now then without.

Edited by Eukardios, 03 June 2012 - 07:17 PM.
Removed name-calling

[sluggo]

Leaf fans have the unjust label of being impatient.

I think 80% of true Leaf fans were willing to wait at least 5 years for an intelligent rebuild.

It was BURKE, who was impatient.

Fans like me, are now complaining, because we are 3 1/2 years into Burke's rebuild; and the foundation of the rebuild is faulty.

This rebuild, thus far, is destined for failure; unless it is almost totally changed.

If it needs to be almost totally changed; then how effective is Burke's work?

Oh sure, he has drafted some average players; and he has brought in some average players; but ask yourself this.

Do we have a core which is capable of winning a Stanley Cup?

Is Phaneuf a Stanley Cup captain? Is Kessel a Stanley Cup scorer? Is Grabovski a Stanley Cup centre?

I don't think so.

But you're forgetting, Kadri-Frattin-D'Amigo will be their 2nd line next year. They got to the Calder finals so........ya

[Euronuck]

Leaf fans have the unjust label of being impatient.

I think 80% of true Leaf fans were willing to wait at least 5 years for an intelligent rebuild.

It was BURKE, who was impatient.

Fans like me, are now complaining, because we are 3 1/2 years into Burke's rebuild; and the foundation of the rebuild is faulty.

This rebuild, thus far, is destined for failure; unless it is almost totally changed.

If it needs to be almost totally changed; then how effective is Burke's work?

Oh sure, he has drafted some average players; and he has brought in some average players; but ask yourself this.

Do we have a core which is capable of winning a Stanley Cup?

Is Phaneuf a Stanley Cup captain? Is Kessel a Stanley Cup scorer? Is Grabovski a Stanley Cup centre?

I don't think so.

So in 5 years time you expected him to go from the team we had into a team capable of winning the stanley cup? Wow..... I guess this explains alot.

Good luck with thinking any GM could step in and get that done. Also could you quite throwing around the "true leaf fans" stuff. So we agree to disagree yet somehow that labels me as no being a true fan? I live 6000 km away from Toronto I'll sleep after work on game nights so I can get up at 2 in the morning to watch this team play. I watch various other games through out the league and track players and also moves made by other organizations.

I see the larger plan set in place and know that in order to acheive ones goal patience is required. The thing is now with all you "true leaf fans" moaning about how Burke should also be ran out of town of course this guy is going to feel teh pressure to make some knee jerk reaction and deviate from his plan.

So goes the cycle on and on and on. If we had say a Hall an Eberle and Hopkins you "true leaf fans" would be expecting at least a playoff spot next year by also acquiring a goaltender or upgrade on our defense.

I mean look at us we have all these "core players" oh wait but you said yourself you'll give Edmonton another 2 years. So why does Burke not get this same luxury? Why cause you have no flashy name that was said 1200000 times during the season that he was ranked in the top 5 prospects for this upcoming draft?

I guess I'll leave you "true leaf fans" to it then. As I guess anyone that does not share your view on things is determined to be some bandwagon fan.

[sluggo]

So in 5 years time you expected him to go from the team we had into a team capable of winning the stanley cup? Wow..... I guess this explains alot.

Good luck with thinking any GM could step in and get that done. Also could you quite throwing around the "true leaf fans" stuff. So we agree to disagree yet somehow that labels me as no being a true fan? I live 6000 km away from Toronto I'll sleep after work on game nights so I can get up at 2 in the morning to watch this team play. I watch various other games through out the league and track players and also moves made by other organizations.

I see the larger plan set in place and know that in order to acheive ones goal patience is required. The thing is now with all you "true leaf fans" moaning about how Burke should also be ran out of town of course this guy is going to feel teh pressure to make some knee jerk reaction and deviate from his plan.

So goes the cycle on and on and on. If we had say a Hall an Eberle and Hopkins you "true leaf fans" would be expecting at least a playoff spot next year by also acquiring a goaltender or upgrade on our defense.

I mean look at us we have all these "core players" oh wait but you said yourself you'll give Edmonton another 2 years. So why does Burke not get this same luxury? Why cause you have no flashy name that was said 1200000 times during the season that he was ranked in the top 5 prospects for this upcoming draft?

I guess I'll leave you "true leaf fans" to it then. As I guess anyone that does not share your view on things is determined to be some bandwagon fan.

How about in 5 years we expect the team to no be worse? And Burke himself said 5 year plans were bs, so even he didn't think it would take this long. Why are you so determined to make excuses for him?

If a GM takes over a team, says he is going to turnt hings around right away, makes moves toward that ends, gives away big chunks of the teams future to win now, why is it unreasonable for fans to be upset with the lack of results?

What is the larger plan then? The one that requires patience even though the GM hasn't shown any.

The leafs had a Hall, Eberle and Hopkins (or say Kane, Seguin and Hamilton......see what I did there?) people wouldn't be as critical of Burke because he'd be doing something that requires patience.

Burke doesn't get the same luxury because his core is Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Grabovski, Liles - guys who are in the primes and who aren't still developing.

[jockdent]

So in 5 years time you expected him to go from the team we had into a team capable of winning the stanley cup? Wow..... I guess this explains alot.

Good luck with thinking any GM could step in and get that done. Also could you quite throwing around the "true leaf fans" stuff. So we agree to disagree yet somehow that labels me as no being a true fan? I live 6000 km away from Toronto I'll sleep after work on game nights so I can get up at 2 in the morning to watch this team play. I watch various other games through out the league and track players and also moves made by other organizations.

I see the larger plan set in place and know that in order to acheive ones goal patience is required. The thing is now with all you "true leaf fans" moaning about how Burke should also be ran out of town of course this guy is going to feel teh pressure to make some knee jerk reaction and deviate from his plan.

So goes the cycle on and on and on. If we had say a Hall an Eberle and Hopkins you "true leaf fans" would be expecting at least a playoff spot next year by also acquiring a goaltender or upgrade on our defense.

I mean look at us we have all these "core players" oh wait but you said yourself you'll give Edmonton another 2 years. So why does Burke not get this same luxury? Why cause you have no flashy name that was said 1200000 times during the season that he was ranked in the top 5 prospects for this upcoming draft?

I guess I'll leave you "true leaf fans" to it then. As I guess anyone that does not share your view on things is determined to be some bandwagon fan.

If I offended you, Euro; I apologize.

I consider you one of the most loyal Leaf fans I have ever known.

Just to make the sacrifices that you make to follow the Leafs is unbelievable. You can be sure that I would not be willing to do the same.

But you've got me pegged wrong.

Firstly, when I said most Leaf fans were willing to wait at least 5 years for a rebuild; I did not mean 5 years to win the Stanley Cup. I meant 5 years to be a legit contender.

Secondly, I included you in that patient group who would be willing to wait 5 years for a rebuild. So, where did you read into that, that I don't think you are a true Leaf fan?

Also, If Burke trades away our 1st pick, this year; you're right, it will be a knee-jerk reaction; but he won't be doing me any favours. You already know that I don't want him to trade away our 1st pick, this year.

You like what Burke has done so far; I respect your view. I've never poked fun, or ridiculed your view.

But I believe that Burke hasn't done a very good job; and I give the reasons why.

We can have this discussion without becoming overly sensitive, can't we?

[Euronuck]

Can we all just agree to wait and see what unfolds during this offseason before we hang Burke out to dry?

The funny thing is with all that young talent on Edmonton they are also expecting a playoff run this season.

It's gonna be interesting to see what moves Burke can pull off and who makes camp this fall. If he does pull the trigger on Luongo what other moves will that trigger? Is Getzlaf still on the market?

Seriously if next week after the Devils get eliminated a trade goes down where Getzlaf is announced as coming to the Leafs I wonder how the tone would change on here.

[jigson]

If I offended you, Euro; I apologize.

I consider you one of the most loyal Leaf fans I have ever known.

Just to make the sacrifices that you make to follow the Leafs is unbelievable. You can be sure that I would not be willing to do the same.

But you've got me pegged wrong.

Firstly, when I said most Leaf fans were willing to wait at least 5 years for a rebuild; I did not mean 5 years to win the Stanley Cup. I meant 5 years to be a legit contender.

Secondly, I included you in that patient group who would be willing to wait 5 years for a rebuild. So, where did you read into that, that I don't think you are a true Leaf fan?

Also, If Burke trades away our 1st pick, this year; you're right, it will be a knee-jerk reaction; but he won't be doing me any favours. You already know that I don't want him to trade away our 1st pick, this year.

You like what Burke has done so far; I respect your view. I've never poked fun, or ridiculed your view.

But I believe that Burke hasn't done a very good job; and I give the reasons why.

We can have this discussion without becoming overly sensitive, can't we?

Has anyone ever been involved in a relationship where someone constantly nags and complains at them about irrelevant or unsubstantiated nonsense constantly?

Someone who never really makes a new point or validates their argument with new facts or information, but still continues to nag.. and nag.. and nag.. and complain.. and complain.. and complain about the same old thing over and over and over and over.

Were you tempted to tell them to....

Get over it.. move along.. get a life.. or make a change what will bring some joy to their miserable life?

Just wondering...

There are fans who would like to be able to enjoy discussing the issues surrounding the team without having every single thread blown up by the small group of posters who never have any positive input, but just wait in the weeds to jump on every single comment made that is in any ways supportive of the team.

You know who you are...

so, get over it, move along, get a life, make a change to something that will bring some joy into your life.

The rest of us are sick of being hen-pecked because we see some good in the team we love.

[J-BOLD]

People think that Burke is done improving this team. And this team is what we'll have for years to come..

[jockdent]

Has anyone ever been involved in a relationship where someone constantly nags and complains at them about irrelevant or unsubstantiated nonsense constantly?

Someone who never really makes a new point or validates their argument with new facts or information, but still continues to nag.. and nag.. and nag.. and complain.. and complain.. and complain about the same old thing over and over and over and over.

Were you tempted to tell them to....

Get over it.. move along.. get a life.. or make a change what will bring some joy to their miserable life?

Just wondering...

There are fans who would like to be able to enjoy discussing the issues surrounding the team without having every single thread blown up by the small group of posters who never have any positive input, but just wait in the weeds to jump on every single comment made that is in any ways supportive of the team.

You know who you are...

so, get over it, move along, get a life, make a change to something that will bring some joy into your life.

The rest of us are sick of being hen-pecked because we see some good in the team we love.

Jig, this is the second post in a row, where you have reprimanded me for having a negative tone in my posts.

I heard you the first time.

Get off my back; and go bother someone else!

[J-BOLD]

Jig, this is the second post in a row, where you have reprimanded me for having a negative tone in my posts.

I heard you the first time.

Get off my back; and go bother someone else!

This is getting exciting.

[IrishLeaffan]

Jig, this is the second post in a row, where you have reprimanded me for having a negative tone in my posts.

I heard you the first time.

Get off my back; and go bother someone else! It is beyond my why you have not been banned for some of your posts. If you were not a moderator you would be given time off the board.
Jig, grow up, your are not right all the time and other are allowed to have their opinions.

Actually Jig, it time you grow up and stop attacking people that don't agree with you.

"Has anyone ever been involved in a relationship where someone constantly nags and complains at them about irrelevant or unsubstantiated nonsense constantly?" Is this talking about your posts?

[racer888]

Actually Jig, it time you grow up and stop attacking people that don't agree with you.

"Has anyone ever been involved in a relationship where someone constantly nags and complains at them about irrelevant or unsubstantiated nonsense constantly?" Is this talking about your posts?

Agreed. the anti BB faction points out many things BB has done wrong and we have the fact of no play offs and one of the biggest meltdowns in league history to support our claims and the BB supporters all they have is hopes and dreams pinned on some prospects that they hope will rise to the occasion and the hopes that BB will finally start making moves that will improve our fortunes after 4 years of treading water and actually going backwards last year

[J-BOLD]

Has anyone ever been involved in a relationship where someone constantly nags and complains at them about irrelevant or unsubstantiated nonsense constantly?

Actually, that sounds like every relationship. Except it's usually the girl nagging and complaining.

[jockdent]

Can we all just agree to wait and see what unfolds during this offseason before we hang Burke out to dry?

The funny thing is with all that young talent on Edmonton they are also expecting a playoff run this season.

It's gonna be interesting to see what moves Burke can pull off and who makes camp this fall. If he does pull the trigger on Luongo what other moves will that trigger? Is Getzlaf still on the market?

Seriously if next week after the Devils get eliminated a trade goes down where Getzlaf is announced as coming to the Leafs I wonder how the tone would change on here.

I've got good news and I've got bad news, Euro.


I'll give you the bad news first.

The bad news is that so far, the sum total of what Burke has done; leads me to believe that he may have poor judgement; and that will be his undoing in the end.

The good news is that, unlike in the case of Wilson, where there was never a shadow of a doubt in my mind, that he was a bad coach; I could be wrong about Burke.

I, too, will be watching very carefully; to see what he does between the end of the playoffs and October.