256 replies to this topic

[sluggo]

Center: Yep

Defence: Debatable on Phaneuf but I know your opinion already on him. Gardiner has the ability to become a number one as does Percy IMO

Goalies: Not yet, but we don't know

There is no debate. Phaneuf is not a guy you can build around. He is not on the same level as Weber, Doughty, Karlsson, Pronger, Chara. He used to be, he hasn't been in a while.

The Leafs are more then a goalie away from being a contending team.

Keep in mind that Burke also brought in J.S. Giguere. By all rights, that should have solved the goalie problem, but he just never worked out here.

~E~

Giguere had lost his job to Hiller. He was an upgrade but he wasn't a goalie who would make a medicore team look good.

[Euronuck]

I don't consider Gilmour, Clark, Roberts, etc., failures because they didn't win the Cup for the Leafs.

They were all players who DID work out.

They were very talented players who gave it their all, and just fell short.

Not the same as Komisarek, Beauchemin, Versteeg, Aulie, Connolly, Lebda,Exelby, etc.

For those players though we had many more that we brought in and we also never acheived that success. In the end the ultimate goal is winning the cup. We could end up as 2nd last in the league or finishing 2nd and it still won't be enough. The goal is to win the cup. Anything else can be deemed a failure no matter how great the player. Gretzky can be seen as a failed trade after he left Edmonton as he never won the cup after leaving.

[jockdent]

For those players though we had many more that we brought in and we also never acheived that success. In the end the ultimate goal is winning the cup. We could end up as 2nd last in the league or finishing 2nd and it still won't be enough. The goal is to win the cup. Anything else can be deemed a failure no matter how great the player. Gretzky can be seen as a failed trade after he left Edmonton as he never won the cup after leaving.

If you think that, then you are the one who is unreasonable, not me.

Of course, I want to see a Stanley Cup in Toronto; but I understand that a Gm can do all the right things and still not win the Cup.

But in that case, at least you know he did a good job; but fate was not kind to him.

With Burke, it is obvious to me that he is heading in the wrong direction. He is responsible for his own demise.

[Buncky]

Honestly Sluggo, jockdent, and other negative writers, take a deep breath and just take a minute to think for a sec...unless you dunt have the patience to do that either.

First of all, You may like Brian Burke or not, thats your choice (Y)
Second of all, you may believe that the Leafs just dont have any Crosbys in the system, cool thats also your choice of opinion.
Third of all, you may follow this team weather you like it or not, thats also your choice...

But if youre going to come out here and complain about everything, then you also have a choice to follow a different team that has
everything your looking for. why dont you go follow the canucks, they have elite players in the sedins, two capable goalies in luu and
schnieder, and a decent defence corp.

Like someone said earlier, if your'e not satisfied with the product burke is offering you, why do you continue to watch his product and
go to games and criticize every move he makes. Not to mention waste your time coming on these boards and pissing off all the fans
that do support Burke and everything he has done...Now remember not everyone thinks Burke has done a bad job, everyone is entitled
to their own opinion...i suggest you move onto some other board and post positive comments. no point criticizing a team if you feel
that it hasnt satisfied you, move onto a product that does. its like you continuing to eat ruffle chips even tho you realize its too crunchy for your taste, when you can try some other brand like Lays.

[Buncky]

^ the formatting screwed up i apologize for that

[25alex56]

Honestly Sluggo, jockdent, and other negative writers, take a deep breath and just take a minute to think for a sec...unless you dunt have the patience to do that either.

First of all, You may like Brian Burke or not, thats your choice (Y)
Second of all, you may believe that the Leafs just dont have any Crosbys in the system, cool thats also your choice of opinion.
Third of all, you may follow this team weather you like it or not, thats also your choice...

But if youre going to come out here and complain about everything, then you also have a choice to follow a different team that has
everything your looking for. why dont you go follow the canucks, they have elite players in the sedins, two capable goalies in luu and
schnieder, and a decent defence corp.

Like someone said earlier, if your'e not satisfied with the product burke is offering you, why do you continue to watch his product and
go to games and criticize every move he makes. Not to mention waste your time coming on these boards and pissing off all the fans
that do support Burke and everything he has done...Now remember not everyone thinks Burke has done a bad job, everyone is entitled
to their own opinion...i suggest you move onto some other board and post positive comments. no point criticizing a team if you feel
that it hasnt satisfied you, move onto a product that does. its like you continuing to eat ruffle chips even tho you realize its too crunchy for your taste, when you can try some other brand like Lays.

TLDR version of Buncky's (poor) argument:

If you like telling us why we're losing, go cheer for someone else. Vancouver.

[Euronuck]

If you think that, then you are the one who is unreasonable, not me.

Of course, I want to see a Stanley Cup in Toronto; but I understand that a Gm can do all the right things and still not win the Cup.

But in that case, at least you know he did a good job; but fate was not kind to him.

With Burke, it is obvious to me that he is heading in the wrong direction. He is responsible for his own demise.

Please explain to me just how obvious it is that he is going in the wrong direction?

[2High2Tell]

Patience?Is that a kid I haven't heard about in the minors? Does he play Center?

[racer888]

Honestly Sluggo, jockdent, and other negative writers, take a deep breath and just take a minute to think for a sec...unless you dunt have the patience to do that either.

First of all, You may like Brian Burke or not, thats your choice (Y)
Second of all, you may believe that the Leafs just dont have any Crosbys in the system, cool thats also your choice of opinion.
Third of all, you may follow this team weather you like it or not, thats also your choice...

But if youre going to come out here and complain about everything, then you also have a choice to follow a different team that has
everything your looking for. why dont you go follow the canucks, they have elite players in the sedins, two capable goalies in luu and
schnieder, and a decent defence corp.

Like someone said earlier, if your'e not satisfied with the product burke is offering you, why do you continue to watch his product and
go to games and criticize every move he makes. Not to mention waste your time coming on these boards and pissing off all the fans
that do support Burke and everything he has done...Now remember not everyone thinks Burke has done a bad job, everyone is entitled
to their own opinion...i suggest you move onto some other board and post positive comments. no point criticizing a team if you feel
that it hasnt satisfied you, move onto a product that does. its like you continuing to eat ruffle chips even tho you realize its too crunchy for your taste, when you can try some other brand like Lays.

Because We love the leafs and think he should be doing a better job
Because your point of view is not the only one that matter, we have one as well
If you do not like our point of view YOU have the choice not to be involved in a thread thar debates the effectivness of Burkie
Have a nice day

[jockdent]

Honestly Sluggo, jockdent, and other negative writers, take a deep breath and just take a minute to think for a sec...unless you dunt have the patience to do that either.

First of all, You may like Brian Burke or not, thats your choice (Y)
Second of all, you may believe that the Leafs just dont have any Crosbys in the system, cool thats also your choice of opinion.
Third of all, you may follow this team weather you like it or not, thats also your choice...

But if youre going to come out here and complain about everything, then you also have a choice to follow a different team that has
everything your looking for. why dont you go follow the canucks, they have elite players in the sedins, two capable goalies in luu and
schnieder, and a decent defence corp.

Like someone said earlier, if your'e not satisfied with the product burke is offering you, why do you continue to watch his product and
go to games and criticize every move he makes. Not to mention waste your time coming on these boards and pissing off all the fans
that do support Burke and everything he has done...Now remember not everyone thinks Burke has done a bad job, everyone is entitled
to their own opinion...i suggest you move onto some other board and post positive comments. no point criticizing a team if you feel
that it hasnt satisfied you, move onto a product that does. its like you continuing to eat ruffle chips even tho you realize its too crunchy for your taste, when you can try some other brand like Lays.

I hope you feel better, now that you got that off your chest.

But I'll probably still be here, when you're long gone.

If my posts upset you, ignore them.

Except for some Sittler teams, and some Gilmour teams; there has been a lot to criticize in Leaf management for the last 45 years.

These last 3 years are no different.

Did you notice the bolded part of my post, Buncky? Tell me, how long have you been a Leaf fan?

[jockdent]

Please explain to me just how obvious it is that he is going in the wrong direction?

I think the best way to assemble a team, is to assemble a young, outstanding core( including a goalie), outstanding ancillary players, and then when you feel that you are ready to pounce; add those couple of players that will push you over the top( vets).

Burke started his rebuild( some will call it a retool), by trading all the marbles for Kessel. A trade like that should only be done, if you are acquiring a player who will be the very basis of your core. Kessel is a gifted goal scorer; but he is not a core player. He is an outstanding ancillary player; but he is an ancillary player.

Burke then made a block buster trade to acquire Phaneuf. Phaneuf was to be player #2 of the core. He even made him captain after 30 games. In my opinion, not only is Phaneuf not worthy of being a core player; but he's not a good captain.

If these 2 players aren't worthy of being on your core; who is?

So far, Burke has assembled 2 or 3 ancillary players; and no core players.

I think he may now know this; but what can he do? Start over? I think not, if he wants to keep his job.

So he has to continue assembling a mediocre core.

I would call this heading in the wrong direction; wouldn't you?

[primosleafs]

So basically you are saying that you are prepared to give BB 6 years to try and improve the leafs....fine I respect that. I think 6 years is a little to long to see improvement i think we should be seeing it by now

I agree...Even though Burke is moving in the right direction....Its taken waay longer then any of us anticipated....

.I just hope Burke doesnt do anything stupid and trade our star players....Do we already forget how Toronto played in the first half of last season....They crashed and burned due to injury, immaturity and lack of playoff experience...

Bring in Penner and Prust...Both are extremely big boys with recent playoff experience...

.I trully believe Reims and Scriv's are going to dominate this year, if given the chance..

Lupe's and Kess....Well what can I say...we all know what type of hockey these boys can produce without a question...

.I say keep the team exactly the way it is and add a few Very BIG pieces and our boys should have the confidence they'll need to make it too the playoffs...No doubt they'll be eliminated in the early rounds ( which I would really hate to see) but it'll be reality...The following year, all of our boy will have some playoff experience under their belts, and again we'll add the necessary pieces we'll need to be a top team in the NHL...It is taking a lot longer then expected, but Burkes on the right track....Tone down the cocky comments just a tad...other then that, keep up the good work BB...........

[Euronuck]

How do you define a core or ancillary player?

[racer888]

How do you define a core or ancillary player?

To quote the infamous Charlie Scheen........It's called "winning"
Lol

[primosleafs]

I am not sure anyone is actually arguing against this point. I think almost everyone agrees that our farm system is better. What people are arguing is whether or not that's enough to warrant praise for Burke given he's been on the job for 4 years.

The main problem with Burke is that he missed a chance to draft some good young players at the top of the draft. And that opportunity doesn't come around too often. Which is even more reason to be patient. We have no choice but to be patient. Drafting high for more than a couple of years doesn't guarantee you a cup, but it sure as hell gives you the best chance going forward. And I think that's what most people are angry about.

We've missed the playoffs for seven years in a row now. Typically, teams that suck for that long have something to show for it, i.e high draft picks. We don't. All we have to show for it is Phil Kessel and some good prospects in the minors. But, no one actually beleives any of these prospects will be the next Sidney Crosby or Pavel Datsyuk or Malkin. But, that's what this team needs: superstar talent. Where is that going to come from now that we've missed our best chance to draft them? We're back to being a middle of the pack team, the worst place to be.

agree 110%

[primosleafs]

Patience is something you run out of while waiting 4 yrs for a GM to aquire a franchise player and rebuilds by trading away two top picks for an inconsistent one way player . Patience you run out of when the GM says they are going to get bigger up the middle while Grabovski never grew an inch neither did Bozak . Patence you just plain lose when the GM hires a glassman to play first line center and he can barely fill the third line spot .
Patience is just not easy to keep when your team doesn't make the play offs in 7 yrs .
Patience is really hard to find when the last time the Leafs drank from the cup was 45 years ago

Patience my azs I want to see some progress in the win column I want to see the stats improve instead of being stagnant for 4 yrs . Burke does a lot of stuff that in the end amounts to nothing but changing the names on the back of the jerseys .

I am all out of patience because I'm too busy working on anger management .

I agree with you 110% but Burke is on the right track...Ya he's taking longer then expected, and I hate him for that...But I see the drastic change in this organization that a lot of people don't see...This team is young, but is older then last year...We'll have a healthy lineup...And you all seen how good we played in the first half with a healthy team....We came apart in the latter part of the season due to inexperience, injury and lack of confidance due to stated issue's in hand..Burke brought in JVR a big boy with very skilled hands....Prust or Penner would be an excellent addition...keep reimes and scriven right where they are, especially Scriv's after that calder cup run...These two have great great pontential and I wouldn't throw them away for some vet worth waaaaay to much money....Like I said in an earlier post....add some grit and size, which Burke hass already done by signing JVR...people say he's soft, but players mature, they improve, they get bigger and they get stronger...Watch for JVR to be a beast under the guidance of Carlyle.....This team is on the right track...FA market is slim, but we can still add some serious size with whats out there and with what we already have, we'll have a playoff team this season for sure..It's coming together...

[jockdent]

How do you define a core or ancillary player?

A core player is a player who has the talent and DETERMINATION to come through when you need him most.

An ancillary player is still a talented and DETERMINED player; who is a notch below your core players; but still has the determination to pick up the slack when your core players are double and triple teamed. Ancillary players are usually specialists in what they do; eg.- face off, PK, shut down forwards, big hitters, etc.

[2High2Tell]

I hope you feel better, now that you got that off your chest.

But I'll probably still be here, when you're long gone.

If my posts upset you, ignore them.

Except for some Sittler teams, and some Gilmour teams; there has been a lot to criticize in Leaf management for the last 45 years.

These last 3 years are no different.

Did you notice the bolded part of my post, Buncky? Tell me, how long have you been a Leaf fan?

You got me, I am only 40 years old. lol being older in leafs land only means you have waited longer to see the cup then the rest of us.. unless... you are old enough to see and remember our last cup. I am heavily tattoo'd, I have a spot on my arm I have been saving for when the leafs win the cup. Sometimes I fear I will die with unfinished canvas left...

[jockdent]

You got me, I am only 40 years old. lol being older in leafs land only means you have waited longer to see the cup then the rest of us.. unless... you are old enough to see and remember our last cup. I am heavily tattoo'd, I have a spot on my arm I have been saving for when the leafs win the cup. Sometimes I fear I will die with unfinished canvas left...

Chin up, Bud.

Hope springs eternal from the human heart.

If I can hope; so can you.

[milesalpha]

• You guys are retards...you complain saying that the leafs have been **** for the past 45 years,
  
  and how youre tired of seeing a losing team... you guys complain for everything...so you put pressure
  on burke..what does burke do, he gets players that can help immediately to win...and then when we end
  up winning more games than we should be loosing and ending up with a mediocre draft pick you guys
  Still complain that we have no elite talent...your not going to get first line material prospects in the middle of the first round, youre most likely going to get it in the top 5. SO its either you shutup and let Burke lose entirely, and stop complaining that your'e tired of losing. (its either you win, or you lose and draft properly, sorry folks its impossible to do both)

Retards? Cute. In any case, it seems that it's impossible to do either in Leaf Land lately. You don't get first line prospects in the middle of the first round? Hmmm true, that Erik Karlsson kid is horrid, Jordan Eberle ugh, Jake Gardiner no chance, David Perron uh uh, Zach Parise forget him, Tukka Rask seive... Markus Nasland, Brenden Morrow, Ryan Kessler, Simon Gagne, Saku Koivu, Martin Brodeur, Danius Zubrius....must I go on? And this does not include the plethora of first liners chosen in later rounds. I have worn the rose coloured glasses but I am too old wear them any more. 53 years old and 46 years in the leaf herd, maybe, just maybe, some of us learned a thing or two along the way.