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Jays trades/signings causing pressure?


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23 replies to this topic

#1 AFDAFD

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:53 AM

Do you think the recent moves that the Blue Jays have made making them an arguable contender puts pressure on BB and the Leafs to ice a much better team than in the past several years?

#2 sluggo

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

What Burke should is look at howt he Jays are built rather then just look at a few moves.

Yes they just signed and traded for 4 all-star players to fill several of their holes. But they also drafted and/or developed several key players they have right now (Lawrie, Lind, Arencibia, Romero, Cecil, Drabek, Hutchison, Janssen, Gose, d'Arnaud etc...). This gives them a sold group of players (along with a few others) to support that incoming group. Johson, Buehrle, Reyes, Cabrera are 4 great players but without that group that is here already they don't make the team into a possible contender.

With the Leafs Burke has tried to make those kind of big movies but he didn't have established group already in place.
You never see Coke taking a shot at Pepsi

#3 Seer

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

Do you think the recent moves that the Blue Jays have made making them an arguable contender puts pressure on BB and the Leafs to ice a much better team than in the past several years?

I don't think it has anything to do with Burke... It is just an example of what our new ownership is doing... and it will most likely continue into the Leafs, once we get through this lock-out... Same owners for both teams, so it isn't an individual thing..

SPEED IS YOUR FRIEND, MAPLE LEAFS..! USE IT IN EVERY GAME..!!


#4 CarlBrewer

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:45 PM

There has been tremendous hype over the Blue Jays' recent acquisitions especially on Rogers' owned media. The truth is that what all those deals really do is put the Blue Jays to a level they should have been for years in a market the size of Toronto. They've lowered expectations for the past half decade to the point that actually making a sincere effort to win seems like a coup instead of an assumption. The further truth is that there has been even higher moments of optimism to this before in the years 1997 and 2006. In 1997 Roger Clemens and Benito Santiago were signed plus a group of helpful Pittsburgh major leaguers were acquired to join young rising stars like Delgado, Cruz, Hentgen and Green. A lot of fans were excited about that team but that team fell flat on its face. In 2006 A.J. Burnett and B.J. Ryan were signed and Troy Glaus and Lyle Overbay were acquired to join players such as Wells, Rios and Halladay. That also produced great optimism. What has happened in this off season is hardly unprecedented. The Blue Jays haven't created an unstoppable juggernaut, they've created a potentially good playoff contender.

Back to Burke and the Leafs, a full decent season with a playoff qualification seems to be arriving soon. Just the laws of averages and NHL parity make it a virtual certainty (heck, even the more horribly run Islanders franchise managed playoff qualification once since the lockout at the Leafs' expense). We'll also see this outburst of optimism, good will and hyperbole that will dwarf what we're currently seeing for the Blue Jays. The power of contrast works great in marketing.

Is there pressure on Burke to make a big splash? No, tickets will be sold regardless. The only pressure on Burke is for simple playoff qualification.

#5 Drennan57

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

There has been tremendous hype over the Blue Jays' recent acquisitions especially on Rogers' owned media. The truth is that what all those deals really do is put the Blue Jays to a level they should have been for years in a market the size of Toronto. They've lowered expectations for the past half decade to the point that actually making a sincere effort to win seems like a coup instead of an assumption. The further truth is that there has been even higher moments of optimism to this before in the years 1997 and 2006. In 1997 Roger Clemens and Benito Santiago were signed plus a group of helpful Pittsburgh major leaguers were acquired to join young rising stars like Delgado, Cruz, Hentgen and Green. A lot of fans were excited about that team but that team fell flat on its face. In 2006 A.J. Burnett and B.J. Ryan were signed and Troy Glaus and Lyle Overbay were acquired to join players such as Wells, Rios and Halladay. That also produced great optimism. What has happened in this off season is hardly unprecedented. The Blue Jays haven't created an unstoppable juggernaut, they've created a potentially good playoff contender.

Back to Burke and the Leafs, a full decent season with a playoff qualification seems to be arriving soon. Just the laws of averages and NHL parity make it a virtual certainty (heck, even the more horribly run Islanders franchise managed playoff qualification once since the lockout at the Leafs' expense). We'll also see this outburst of optimism, good will and hyperbole that will dwarf what we're currently seeing for the Blue Jays. The power of contrast works great in marketing.

Is there pressure on Burke to make a big splash? No, tickets will be sold regardless. The only pressure on Burke is for simple playoff qualification.


That's what it comes down to.

It's a good thing for baseball in Toronto but it changes nothing for hockey. The Leafs aren't competing with the Jays for ticket sales, It has no affect on the way they run the team.

ACC will be filled with suits regardless. It's a country club. Hockey is just the entertainment.

#6 CarlBrewer

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:54 PM


That's what it comes down to.

It's a good thing for baseball in Toronto but it changes nothing for hockey. The Leafs aren't competing with the Jays for ticket sales, It has no affect on the way they run the team.

ACC will be filled with suits regardless. It's a country club. Hockey is just the entertainment.


I do understand that there has been a little bit of bleed with the corporate suites. It was reported that there were several unsold suites the last season. However, as I stated, it will only take playoff qualification to fill those up again and even support rate increases. They're the only game in town, there's so much demand for so few seats. The best thing that could happen for hard core Toronto Maple Leafs' fans would be a second NHL team in Toronto. It's only natural to be complacent about competitive mediocrity when the team is an unqualified financial success. McDonald's (apologies to those who like McDonald's) don't need to upgrade their salty oily bland mush because people already like it and it's profitable. You can bet that if people grew tired of McDonald's fare that it would get better very quickly.

#7 calvina7x

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

What Burke should is look at howt he Jays are built rather then just look at a few moves.

Yes they just signed and traded for 4 all-star players to fill several of their holes. But they also drafted and/or developed several key players they have right now (Lawrie, Lind, Arencibia, Romero, Cecil, Drabek, Hutchison, Janssen, Gose, d'Arnaud etc...). This gives them a sold group of players (along with a few others) to support that incoming group. Johson, Buehrle, Reyes, Cabrera are 4 great players but without that group that is here already they don't make the team into a possible contender.

With the Leafs Burke has tried to make those kind of big movies but he didn't have established group already in place.


The jays haven't made the play offs in 20 years... they should have a good group of prospects...

#8 Drennan57

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:00 PM


I do understand that there has been a little bit of bleed with the corporate suites. It was reported that there were several unsold suites the last season. However, as I stated, it will only take playoff qualification to fill those up again and even support rate increases. They're the only game in town, there's so much demand for so few seats. The best thing that could happen for hard core Toronto Maple Leafs' fans would be a second NHL team in Toronto. It's only natural to be complacent about competitive mediocrity when the team is an unqualified financial success. McDonald's (apologies to those who like McDonald's) don't need to upgrade their salty oily bland mush because people already like it and it's profitable. You can bet that if people grew tired of McDonald's fare that it would get better very quickly.


MLSE and everyone with a voice would fight to keep Toronto a 1 team city.

Giving a fan base that hasn't won a cup in 44 years another option is a bad idea and they know it.

#9 jockdent

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

We won 2 World Series in a row because Pat Gillick was a very intelligent, shrewd manager, and Labatts decided that money was no object.

Since Rogers has been in control of the Jays; they've shown absolutely no compulsion to open their purse strings. Don't get too excited about this trade. Until Rogers is commited to building a winner; you won't see one.

As for the trade's affect on Burke, and the Leafs; there is none.

Unlike baseball, in hockey, where there is a salary cap; opening the purse strings doesn't mean very much.

To win a Stanley Cup nowadays; you just need one thing; a good GM.

We're screwed, people.

#10 Drennan57

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:41 PM

We won 2 World Series in a row because Pat Gillick was a very intelligent, shrewd manager, and Labatts decided that money was no object.

Since Rogers has been in control of the Jays; they've shown absolutely no compulsion to open their purse strings. Don't get too excited about this trade. Until Rogers is commited to building a winner; you won't see one.

As for the trade's affect on Burke, and the Leafs; there is none.

Unlike baseball, in hockey, where there is a salary cap; opening the purse strings doesn't mean very much.

To win a Stanley Cup nowadays; you just need one thing; a good GM.

We're screwed, people.


errr wut?

I hope he can play goal to :lol: . jks

#11 CarlBrewer

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:44 AM


MLSE and everyone with a voice would fight to keep Toronto a 1 team city.

Giving a fan base that hasn't won a cup in 44 years another option is a bad idea and they know it.



I think the day Rogers and Bell bought MLSE it became a virtual certainty. Rogers and Bell as the ownership of the Leafs isn't lasting forever. I doubt it'll last a decade. One day one of them will own the Leafs and the other will own the other GTA team.

The Chicago Cubs are still wildly popular despite over a century without a championship plus they have an alternative in Chicago. It's going to happen eventually. Greater Toronto is a huge city.now and there's plenty of population to support 2 NHL teams and now there's a possible way for it to happen in the future with both Bell and Rogers having stakes in the NHL team.

#12 jockdent

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:58 PM


Rogers cheapness may have some secondary benefits in the salary capped NHL. They may stay out of the UFA market which is generally a good idea (but bad for fan morale). Plus they may shamelessly send out teams that they don't even attempt to make competitive because they know that a team that misses the playoffs might as well finish low in the standings and have a lower payroll since the seats are sold. Remember that the Toronto Maple Leafs are owned by two big media companies. No more negative press on the Fan 590, TSN and Sportsnet. Everything is going to be positive propaganda we've been hearing about the Blue Jays since Rogers bought Fan 590.


If that happens; then Burke is not only redundant; but a goner.

I may get my wish after all! :D

#13 H-B-C-Y-G

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

Last bit moved to the Jays thread for getting away from the point of this one. Only fair haha

#14 CrazyCanuckEh

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:05 AM

We won 2 World Series in a row because Pat Gillick was a very intelligent, shrewd manager, and Labatts decided that money was no object.

Since Rogers has been in control of the Jays; they've shown absolutely no compulsion to open their purse strings. Don't get too excited about this trade. Until Rogers is commited to building a winner; you won't see one.

As for the trade's affect on Burke, and the Leafs; there is none.

Unlike baseball, in hockey, where there is a salary cap; opening the purse strings doesn't mean very much.

To win a Stanley Cup nowadays; you just need one thing; a good GM.

We're screwed, people.


You don't think that once we get a hockey season going and the Leafs are selling out home games, that finances would be an issue for Rogers when they are taking in half the yearly revenue from MLSE and Bell get's the other half? World Series championships will be bought in Toronto if they have the kind of insane revenue that MLSE has. Look at it this way, TFC has a huge following and the Raptors still have their loyal fans and sell well, if the Leafs get a competitive team on the ice, that means Rogers will continue to spend more on the Jays.

#15 Fready

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:23 AM


The jays haven't made the play offs in 20 years... they should have a good group of prospects...

Actually, its only been 19 years since there last world series win.........

#16 jockdent

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:32 PM


You don't think that once we get a hockey season going and the Leafs are selling out home games, that finances would be an issue for Rogers when they are taking in half the yearly revenue from MLSE and Bell get's the other half? World Series championships will be bought in Toronto if they have the kind of insane revenue that MLSE has. Look at it this way, TFC has a huge following and the Raptors still have their loyal fans and sell well, if the Leafs get a competitive team on the ice, that means Rogers will continue to spend more on the Jays.



I don't think the question is whether Rogers has enough money to buy a World Series or not. They can more than afford it right now; without ANY revenue at all from MLSE.

The question is whether Rogers is committed to winning a World Series; and I don't think they are.

When you start to get close to the stratosphere in spending( where you need to be, to win a World Series); that's when the accountants get into the act; questioning whether spending all this money will really benefit the bottom line that much.

And that's when Rogers will hesitate to spend that little extra to finish the job.

We won those two World Series in the early 90's because Labatts WANTED a World Series; and Gillick had the skill to arrange one.

No matter how skilled AA is; I don't think he's going to get the money to complete the job.

#17 H-B-C-Y-G

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:27 PM


You don't think that once we get a hockey season going and the Leafs are selling out home games, that finances would be an issue for Rogers when they are taking in half the yearly revenue from MLSE and Bell get's the other half? World Series championships will be bought in Toronto if they have the kind of insane revenue that MLSE has. Look at it this way, TFC has a huge following and the Raptors still have their loyal fans and sell well, if the Leafs get a competitive team on the ice, that means Rogers will continue to spend more on the Jays.


TFC had a huge following. Their model of building around Canadian talent was cool at first, but it's coming back to bite them in the rear once you realize our development system, as a country in general, is terrible...they need an infusion of foreign talent to solidify that defense. The Raptors are some development years away from being a big money earner too. They'll need at least a year or 2 of having the NHL back before any money starts being moved around (especially after their investment) and sharing profits with Bell, it's basically all on their other revenue streams right now.

#18 LeafsNationCitizen

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

I'm gonna go a little bit against the grain here and speculate that the jay's big splashy trades and big name signings WILL put some pressure on Burke. It may be self imposed but make no mistake Burke wants to be the "apple of MLSE's eye" and I don't believe his enormous ego will allow AA to take that role.

I've always suggested that Burke's ego is bigger than the team's needs and I believe that will hold true in this case.

This may not be a good thing for our building team but you will see Burke trying to make a splash the next chance he gets imo

 We are convinced that analytics at the end of the day will be key to getting this team back on track. But that said they will never ever replace our ability to determine one’s character and passion for the game of hockey. You have to be good at both, not just one."

 

 

Tim J. LEIWEKE

President and CEO of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Sept/2014


#19 H-B-C-Y-G

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:07 PM

I'm gonna go a little bit against the grain here and speculate that the jay's big splashy trades and big name signings WILL put some pressure on Burke. It may be self imposed but make no mistake Burke wants to be the "apple of MLSE's eye" and I don't believe his enormous ego will allow AA to take that role.

I've always suggested that Burke's ego is bigger than the team's needs and I believe that will hold true in this case.

This may not be a good thing for our building team but you will see Burke trying to make a splash the next chance he gets imo

They already are though, when the league starts up again, they'll sell way more in ad-space with the Leafs no matter what. Hence the price paid for them.

#20 LeafsNationCitizen

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:47 AM

I disagree.

With the loss of the Winter Classic and tv revenues due to the lockout watch the fanbase get behind the Jays in a BIG way. I'm predicticting they enjoy a renaisance? of sorts that will remind everyone of the glory days. Toronto (and most of Canada for that matter) is hungry for a Major League winner and the Jays are going to take a run at being that team.

Burkey's gonna have trouble getting that limelight he covets so badly

 We are convinced that analytics at the end of the day will be key to getting this team back on track. But that said they will never ever replace our ability to determine one’s character and passion for the game of hockey. You have to be good at both, not just one."

 

 

Tim J. LEIWEKE

President and CEO of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Sept/2014







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